E10 petrol

[aussie pete]

Filled up my daily driver today at Sainsbury’s (Brackley) noticed that the nozzle had a tiny sticker stating E10, are they distributing this already?……..there will be a lot of damaged fuel systems/ engine fires as talking to colleges, they are blissfully unaware of the fuel change.

[Mark B]

It’s being introduced in September.

Esso Supreme 99 is ethanol free, even though the nozzle says E5.

[guy whitwam]

This may seem a stupid question , but I can't be the only one , so here goes ……….. as all of us run these old engines , what effect , long and short term are the implications .
I do put an additive in from time to time , as it makes me feel better , and has got to help , the other thing I have noticed is some old car owners , especially owners of old British stuff , have a small canister of lead balls that go into the fuel tank ………….. is this a viable option ?
Does anyone have a clear view , and something we can all understand ?
Yours
GUY

[Dave999]

Aussies and USA been using it for years
provided pipes are up to scratch and fuel pump diaphragm isn't original you should be ok

additive if you leave half a tank in the car for 6 months at a time

it will go off faster and i guess the usual winter and summer blends should be used in winter and summer

but other than that if the fuel system has nothing that reacts with ethanol in it all will be well

timing might need a look and running temp should be monitored but i doubt we will notice



lead balls snake oil

leaded petrol contained tetra ethyl lead


The process for preparing tetraethyl lead which comprises:-

reacting a lead-sodium alloy and ethyl chloride together in the presence, of an aryl ortho phosphate catalyst.

dunking yer balls isn't going to do that...... regardless of them being lead or some "special" catalyst

anything you put in the tank... if it isn't dissolving isn't doing anything positive or negative to the fuel
fuel catalysts and pellets don't seem to dissolve therefore we can assume they are also snake oil

octane boosters do work but they are just mixes of organic chemicals much the same as the additive package added at the refinery

fuel stabilisers work but all they do is bind with any water absorbed by the ethanol and keep it dispersed through the fuel rather than letting it puddle due to its different density hence any in tank rusting is diminished and you burn the fuel and vaporise the water across a full tank. rather than trying to start the car on an ethanol/water mix and no petrol.

water in petrol sinks to the bottom keeping it dispersed throughout helps to avoid rough running on old fuel

must admit the tank full from last october was a bit nasty and ping-y when i got the car out in march this year

new tank full normal service resumed



Dave

[guy whitwam]

Well thank you David , a concise answer from yourself is what I needed , so really keep on keepin on and don't panic seems to be the way to go .
Thank you
GUY
………….. if anyone else has anything to add , your comments are always appreciated

[Dave999]

yeah i think we are a subset of the population who are concerned enough about changes like this to make it worthwhile for certain companies to target us with Magic fix-all solutions, just playing on worries and spouting pseudo science. they got away with it when lead was removed and obviously made money, expect more full page adverts for magic beads etc in the motoring press.

strange i can't find anything about the Brocat fuel catalyst anymore it used to feature regularly.... as a solution to valve seat recession issues!! did anyone need an unleaded head anyway?

Dave

[Steve]

Ive changed all my ŕubber fuel pipes to modern ethanol resistant ones and use Frosts Ethomix as an additive when I fuel up

[Steve]

On the unleaded head issue, I spoke some years ago to a very well respected engine builder who had his own (amazing!) large engineering workshop. He did rebores, crank balancing etc and told me that unless you are doing high mileage, there is no need to fit hardened valve seats in old Mopar engines. He said he has lost count of the number of valve seat drilling tools (cant remember the correct term) he has broken on vintage Mopar heads as they are pretty tough

[aussie pete]

So,..E10 petrol contains 10% ethanol which is a solvent and as such deteriorates non compliant plastic and rubber, the fuel itself has a 30 day usable lifespan ,after which ,due to the absorption of water, it turns acidic and attacks brass,copper,lead,zinc,solder etc.

Question 1
Some of the smaller petrol outlets do not turn around the contents of there holding tanks in 30 days, how does that equate?

Question 2
When they changed to E10 did they empty ( and flush) the tanks prior to filling or did they just mix it.

Question 3
If you have used ‘slosh tank sealer’ ( a sealer for fuel tanks) ,will E10 ‘wash’ it of ?

As a footnote, be careful that you do not leave this fuel in your lawn mower etc

[Steve]

My limited research shows me that an additive like the Frosts Ethomix I use solves these issues

[Blue]

I just use super unleaded now which is still E5.

[Steve]

I have been using super unleaded up until taking my car home recently. My nearest garage that sells it is about 30 miles away so I will have to use regular unleaded with an additive. The Frosts stuff gets decent reviews so that's what I bought directly from them when they were doing a 3 for 2 offer. My other option is to use my runs out in her to get petrol....seems daft but an option

[Dave999]

So,..E10 petrol contains 10% ethanol which is a solvent and as such deteriorates non compliant plastic and rubber, the fuel itself has a 30 day usable lifespan ,after which ,due to the absorption of water, it turns acidic and attacks brass,copper,lead,zinc,solder etc.

Question 1
Some of the smaller petrol outlets do not turn around the contents of there holding tanks in 30 days, how does that equate?

Question 2
When they changed to E10 did they empty ( and flush) the tanks prior to filling or did they just mix it.

Question 3
If you have used ‘slosh tank sealer’ ( a sealer for fuel tanks) ,will E10 ‘wash’ it of ?

As a footnote, be careful that you do not leave this fuel in your lawn mower etc

1) the life of petrol is extended as new is added, so a smaller outlet, if you can still find one, should be keeping the tanks topped off thus reducuing any issues. and they should drain and refill on the move from winter to summer blend and back as the problem in their tanks is 1000s of time bigger than in our cars. modern underground tanks have much more complex venting solutions to help combat the issue

mind the days of a shed 2 pumps and a big illuminated sign saying GLOBE or FLARE or indeed NATIONAL by a country rooad seem to have gone
you sit in a very long queue at BP or esso on the outskirts of town these days

2) don't see an issue as the previous version used less or no ethanol so it was less hydroscopic therefore there should not have been water in the tanks. any fuel station now has to run a modern storage tank with appropriate venting and pollution control that the days of leaky tanks getting water and muck in them should be gone, and I doubt tanker drivers get away with what my FINA drving neigbour used to do in the 70s. which was to fill milk churns stored in his garage from his tanker, with 4 star that he sold to his mates, and then top off the tanker with a garden hose so his bosses didn't know. I am amazed my family survived. " i'm just cleaning it..he'd say, wilst standing on top of the tank with a hose, as we messed about climbing up and down the cab step....

3) dunno but something that can withstand the hydrocarbon mix of petrol should not in theory have any issue with ethanol vodka doesn't seem to disolve varnish on pub bars or the rubber spill mats, and the rubber bungs on wine making exquipmnet last a long time. ethanol by istelf is less acidic than water, slightly alkaline like soap, and when mixed with water its still around 7 on the PH scale so one presume the mixture of petrol ethanol and water would be similar inititally.. The real issue has existed since before e5 fuel. they oxygenate petrol i.e do their damndest to dissolve oxygen gas in it to promote clean running. That promotes rust when water is present. AND the base fuel itself is already massivly polluted with sulphur which when mixed with water ethanol and petrol can be pursuaded to make a range of acids.... we know this because we spent most of the 1970s killing trees in scandinavia with our acid rain. casued by the sulphur in all fuel oils and coal. suphuric acid in small quantities will exist in your tank and allways has, and will degrade many things.... the presence of water will most likely promote more of this. Hence its a multi pronged attack add ethanol which is hydroscopic enough to suck water vapour out of humid air to a tank that has a small quanity of suphuric acid in it which is fiercly hydroscopic and you end up eventually with a puddle of water with ethanol and sulpur in it and hence in a short time MORE suphuric and suphurouse acid , at the bottom of the tank

that same sulphur casues the oil in your motor to eat the bearings if the motor stands full of old oil, unused for years

if you add isopropanol (stabalsing additive) it binds with the water ethanol mix making a substance that has a boiling /exaporation point that is unique to that mixture and is not 100* or 78* basically the water ethanol and acid mix stays distributed and gets burnt or evaporated rather than puddling. at a basic level the additive evaporates taking the ethanol and water with it

when i lived in Oz the issues with ethanol fuel were less to do with car tanks and more anecdotal refrences to fuel stations do not use that service station hes just sold me $150 of water.... followed by the long drawn out internet rant about being unable to prove if the water was in the car tank or the fuel station tank originally, without a policeman and a chemist the fuel station always won..... according to the upset patrons ranting on the net.

i guess we should always buy fuel from a petrol station with a queue
and in most cases i doubt we'll notice the change good fuel in. use it, no probs like 99% of aussies and whole swathes of USA and canada
good fuel in leave it for a year its gonna be a bit crap

must admit the mower runs badly on petrol from a can that must be 5 years old but it runs..... low CR flat head briggs n stratton will run on anything

[Dave999]

found this

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files ... terphs.pdf

seems to imply that the risks are low provided the petrol statiosn follow the rules

Dave

[MattH]

This is the FBHVC information on E10 fuel.

https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/news/article/fb ... c-vehicles