Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

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Chargingatchya
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Chargingatchya »

Blue wrote: Thu Feb 24, 22 10:39 am Happy to take those nasty old valve covers off your hands if you want rid of them! I wouldn't use the copper head gaskets, there's no need and regular composite are perfectly adequate and hassle free.

Iv only read good things about copper head gaskets, why do you say that mate? I was going to use them as I have them in hand, that’s all. In all honesty I don’t even know for sure if the head gaskets need doing. Haven’t carried out any testing or seen any signs other than some milky grease in valve cover but that may be from sitting. Just seemed a good idea to do at this point.
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Pete
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Pete »

I agree with Blue.

I am going to run copper ones in my (other) Hemi, but that is because it is "O" Ringed.

Even then, you have to use a special spray on coating to prevent water leaks...

I would stick with Felpro's if you need to do the job...
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.

Mopar by the grace of God
Chargingatchya
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Chargingatchya »

Pete wrote: Thu Feb 24, 22 1:22 pm I agree with Blue.

I am going to run copper ones in my (other) Hemi, but that is because it is "O" Ringed.

Even then, you have to use a special spray on coating to prevent water leaks...

I would stick with Felpro's if you need to do the job...
Okay thanks Pete. As you guys can see I have a lot to learn. Up for sale these go!

Thanks!
Chargingatchya
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Chargingatchya »

Okay so it’s been an emotional roller coaster with the (get her running” part of the build….

First she runs, then she doesn’t. Then she runs, then she doesn’t…

Find problem, sort get her running. Find problem, sort, get her running. Had them
All so far, dodgy starter, leads, loose wiring, coil packed up, carb needed replacing, ignition switch, ballast resistor honestly there has not been one part of this car I have been lucky with!

Latest one seems to be a head gasket. Well, I am hoping it’s the head gasket and not a cracked block. There is a pool of
Black water in the sump. I found this as there was a leak from the timing chain cover. It seems the coolant os working it’s way down there.

Iv never dealt with a head gasket before so this is all new to me.

I am currently removing the heads to inspect a little further. Underneath the rocker cover was dry! Really dry I can’t work out as last time I checked it looked good under there. Just a week ago I was watching the valves do their thing and it did not seem there was a problem with the Oil pump as I was watching the oil shoot all over my drive 😂

Please feel free to voice your opinion. For the record I am not stressed. I will deal with each and every issue. This charger will see the road again. Probably won’t be this summer as planned though 🤣

I am learning though. This is like the short accelerator course into muscle car mechanics…
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Dave999
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Dave999 »

if the coolant in the the sump... then as you rightly say it can get there via numerouse routes

cracked head or block would be worst case scenario. so you don't want to worry about that yet

check around the inlet manifold does it have water passages? i'm not familiar with big block V8, i,e did it leak at its inlet gasket and pour water into the sump via the valley, usually while cooling down.... if so its a set of inlet manifold gaskets and associated valley tray bits n bobs.. there will be tips and tricks for fitting this lot back that i don't know V8 person will be needed
rest the inlet in the valley with no gaskets to check fit and angles....

some of the studs for the timing cover and woter pump may go into the water jacket did one come out like a bolt...? or are they bolts with no sealer on?
re install with a few threads worth of sealer or loktite

if all good on the inlet and cover side of things

it is next most likley a head gasket problem between a water gallery and a combustion chamber.
pressure in the cooling system, once the engine is stopped, pushes water into the chamber and the water runs down into the crank case. you don't necesarily see much when motor is running becasue it vapourises instantly.

look for one cylinder that is particularly grotty, it might just be full of grot or it may look kinda varnished, it will look different to the rest , you may see little sign of a problem with the gasket depends on type and how much it glues itself to the block

check each head combsution chamber deck face and into the ports for signs of leakage i.e cracks or corroision holes
look for cracks between valve seats i.e running from exhaust to inlet or from 1 to plug thread in the top of the chamber
hopefully you see nothing

clean the block faces with plastic scrubbers try to avoid getting any of the gunk stuck down the cylinders . block off wter and oil galleries with some kind of stoppers... I could fit grub screws into the water passage and i used rubber end cap from a reel of cable for oil. dont loose them down the hole and remeber to take them out.

Rotate a piston to the top clean that area then move it down slightly and get a microfibre cloth in there to get the bits out. granted they will burn.. but you don't want them clagging up the rings

wipe surfaces down with brake cleaner or similar

decison time
you don't know why the gasket leaked if it was a heat or over heating issue in the past there is no guarantee that the head is flat. like a warped record its not going back...and the warp will vary based on tempertaure.

it might be worth taking both heads for the lightest skim to clean up the faces in theory this will be a matter of a few thou, but it will give you a clean face to work with with the correct level of surface roughness to work nice with a standard gasket . that surface won't be correct for a cometic shim gasket or copper both need surfaces ground to a specic smoothness.

This small skim in theory should not cause an issue with the inlet manifold mounting faces. which as you see are at an angle, the skim lowers the head and narrows the wedge shaped space you put the inlet manifold into.. just couple thou and a graphite inlet gasket should be ok any more and there is an equation somewhere that links the amount removed from the heads to the amount you need to remove from the inlet manifold face to get it to fit, avoids a chunk of trigonometry....

i used expanded graphite inlet and exhaust gaskets becasue i like them and i have never had a problem.... they are thick and compliant, they work well on mine that shares a gasket betwen exhaust and inlet allowing 3 different bits of flange all to mount leak free to the same flat surface, if they work here they will work anywhere, the standard gasket is metal shim fine on day one, easy to bugger up, on day 9000, with mis matched parts.

next is probably going to cause contention and lots will disagree

i fill with water only and the correct amount of K-seal, read the bottle

i run the engine up to temperature and drive it for a few 100 miles

if all good i dump the K seal/water, you don't want it hanging about if there is no emergency, re torque the head bolts (even on a monotorque gasket)

and fill with standard blue coolant

coolant is wetter than pure water, coolant will find a way out easier than water, and coolant can mess with gasket seal, hence i suggest water to start with while the gasket bakes... :)

many will say never ever ever ever ever put K-seal near an engine

professional builders don't, they have confidence in their ability to do a head gasket correctly and they did 4 yesturday will be doing 4 today and another six tomorrow..... no probs

the only people who do are backyard mechanics (i.e you and me) and the odd chap who is doing some re use of a cometic or copper gasket in an emrgency
you are not supposed to re use any head gasket !!!
copper can be re used if softened again, cometic steel shim style gasket is supposed be 1 use only, but pleanty re use them if the coating is still good or they bodge it with spray hylomar or copper coat spray on each side of each part of the shim pack...

you will be using standard head gasket... you can't bodge them back on.... so you need new ones every time, and as such making it work every time is key.....you don't wanner be doing this again in 3 weeks time, hence my suggestion

copper is probably overkill unles you are running some kind of monster motor with high cylinder pressures some kind of race machine or forced induction. read up about copper gaskets before use. handy also for correcting things you can get fat and thin versions to set CR and cater for strange piston crown/deck height combos.


K seal is not a good fix for a permanent leak but i see little impact of using it once for a short period of time to avoid a leak..... :)

if you still have a problem after all of this its time to take it to bits and get it checked by somone who knows what to look for, or indeed crack tested, penetrant dye checking sonic checking or pressure tested for the heads.

both expenive its a last resort kinda thing.

worst case its a tiny corrosion or casting flaw hole in a cylinder wall low down if it was near the top the radiator hose would have come off by itself... :)



Dave
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Dave999
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Dave999 »

if its fuel in the sump

check mechanical fuel pump doesn't have split diaphragm. if its a crimped pump throw it away if its a rebuildable type you can get a kit with modern material for ethanol fuel to replace the pump diaphragm and valve parts..
or run it on a cheap facet electric (or indeed a chinese copy ebay one) until you are ready to hit the street.
For longenvity and simplicity a mechanical pump wins....

or
new oil and tune the carb. you'd need to be smokey smokey rich to really fill the sump mind, or consistently running for hours with multiple cylinders not fireing, you'd have known all was not well the car would have been rocking along with the motor

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Chargingatchya
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Chargingatchya »

Thank you Dave (if I had a penny for every time I said “thank you Dave” 😂)

As you now know it’s actually unleaded in the sump and not coolant. The head gasket, however did need doing and it was in a right state. I am happy I done this. Also gives me a chance to clean a few things up that I have been meaning to do.

Just updating this for the sake of anyone reading. I am in the process of working out why there is fuel in the sump, of course Dave has guided me.

At least the block doesn’t looked cracked and such an issue are slim now as the signs are not at all pointing this way.

I will get there…
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Stu Twin
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Stu Twin »

Do you have a mechanical fuel pump?
We had a mix of fuel and oil in the sump on what was a relatively new engine.
One of the things we didn't change though, was the mechanical fuel pump.
The diagnosis was that the diaphragm in the fuel pump had split / deteriorated and let fuel through to the sump. The diluted oil didn't do it's job of lubricating the bores and within 500 miles the bores and crank journals were worn excessively. First signs were a smokey exhaust.
So it would be best to check your mech fuel pump. Relatively easy to remove in situ. And not too expensive to replace.
Good luck, you'll get there.
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Pete
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Pete »

I would have pulled the motor long ago and stripped it. Probably the Trans too.

I am sure you do not want to hear that.

Good luck with the car - you have come such a long way with it, I am confident you will beat all the gremlins..
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.

Mopar by the grace of God
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Dave999
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Dave999 »

yeah but pointless bulding a motor and trans if at the time you don't know if you will have a car or just a pile of rust to put it in....

i can see sense in the order taken here.... :)


Dave
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mygasser
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by mygasser »

i can see having a nice shiny rebuilt engine in the garage for those times when the rust repair/discovery gets you down. a quick lift of the dust sheet and the engine gets you all excited again to carry on :thumbright:
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Blue
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Blue »

Given how long the car has been sitting I would just change the fuel pump as a matter of course, if the diaphragm isn’t knacked already it can’t be much longer for this world. For the same reasons I would go through the engine and trans as a matter of course also, I appreciate right now you just want to drive it! Things like core plugs are likely to bite you in the arse and are a pain to replace in situ, use brass ones when you replace them.
“This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin’ around”
Chargingatchya
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Chargingatchya »

Pete wrote: Wed Mar 30, 22 6:04 am I would have pulled the motor long ago and stripped it. Probably the Trans too.

I am sure you do not want to hear that.

Good luck with the car - you have come such a long way with it, I am confident you will beat all the gremlins..
No mate you speak the truth. In and amongst the excitement of owning a Mopar (a childhood dream) I think I have got caught up in an un realistic approach to classic car restoration. In doing so, I have probably lengthened the down time and made life harder for myself in terms of the work that needs doing.

I am incredibly please with how the shell has turned out and this car really deserves more than a half hearted approach to finish and rush to get driving.

My dad always said, “never choose what you want now over what you want most”. That seems to fit here.

In all fairness I heard and saw her run, she fired up quite easily so I thought if I could enjoy it as a ratty runner for a cheeky year (or two!) before pulling the engine and trans for a full on rebuild when required.

Any how, I spoke with the mighty Dave Billadaeu today, and while it was insightful it was also an expensive phone call as I’m 80% set on delivering to him my engine and tranny mid April.

If there is anyone else recommended I’d be happy to get other prices, so please feel free to PM me if you prefer. I have not done this before, it’s all new and I am still learning.

I like the idea of a full rebuild (who wouldn’t?!) but am not sure if at this point it’s a bit dramatic. The engine is currently stripped down to the heads and I have decided to pull the lot for a good clean up, inspection and paint up the engine bay.
Chargingatchya
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Chargingatchya »

Blue wrote: Wed Mar 30, 22 5:42 pm Given how long the car has been sitting I would just change the fuel pump as a matter of course, if the diaphragm isn’t knacked already it can’t be much longer for this world. For the same reasons I would go through the engine and trans as a matter of course also, I appreciate right now you just want to drive it! Things like core plugs are likely to bite you in the arse and are a pain to replace in situ, use brass ones when you replace them.
I ordered a new Delphi fuel pump and the cheap s@#£t fell apart in my hand, the inlets/outlets were just crimped on. Back on went the old one. I will be installing a new one, but to be fair the one that’s on there really looks quite new.

As for the engine, pretty much everything is new. I have stripped down to do the head gasket and was in the process of doing this. I’m now just thinking it may just be smarter and cost effective to go for a full on rebuild.

I’m pretty sure that the fuel in the sump is the result of me and by bud pouring fuel down the carb and a cranking repeatedly. It’s a bit difficult to avoid this when fault finding. Especially when there’s been 101 problems to solve 😂
Chargingatchya
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Re: Restoration thread 1969 St Albans charger

Post by Chargingatchya »

Stu Twin wrote: Tue Mar 29, 22 9:53 pm Do you have a mechanical fuel pump?
We had a mix of fuel and oil in the sump on what was a relatively new engine.
One of the things we didn't change though, was the mechanical fuel pump.
The diagnosis was that the diaphragm in the fuel pump had split / deteriorated and let fuel through :thumbright:to the sump. The diluted oil didn't do it's job of lubricating the bores and within 500 miles the bores and crank journals were worn excessively. First signs were a smokey exhaust.
So it would be best to check your mech fuel pump. Relatively easy to remove in situ. And not too expensive to replace.
Good luck, you'll get there.
Yes it’s a mechanical fuel pump but I can’t see any signs of this. There will be a new one one it soon
:thumbright:
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