Dodgy Starter Motor?

[Stu Twin]

I hope it is, and nothing else.
The reason I ask is, the other morning I started the freshly rebuilt Plymouth to go to the Herts show, and on turning the key the starter made a horrible clunky /graunchy / clicky noise before firing. (engine cold)
Sounding bit like something wasn't retracting or disengaging. It didn't keep whirring or anything like that, seemed ok when i released the key when it fired.
Odd i thought.
So i was a bit worried leaving the show to go home but it started fine with no odd noises. (engine possibly still warm)
Not wanting to damage the teeth on the new & expensive converter i pulled the starter last night.
It's a 'hi torque mini starter' not sure exactly how old. Can't remember if it was new around 5 years / 1000 miles ago (don't laugh, it's been off the road) when the engine was last rebuilt. If not it could be a fair few years old.
The teeth on the starter seem fine, but the ally casting at the nose end has a crack. Glad i took it out.
I've turned the engine over to inspect the teeth on the converter and they're all present thankfully, with a few having signs of where the starter's engaged.
I have got some photos but not downsized them yet.
The question is, before i put in the new stock style rebuilt starter, is there anything i should check to make sure it doesn't happen again? eg check dimensions of where the TC teeth are relative to the bellhousing? Probably irrelevant but i heard you're supposed to shim Ch**y starters. I've never done anything other than just chuck the starter in and do up the bolt / stud.
I'm hoping the mass produced mitsubishi mini starter just got to the end of it's useful life, and the damage wasn't caused by something else?

While i wait for any advice i'll go down the gym in preparation for lifting the stock starter back in. Jeez it must be twice the weight of the mini. Lets hope it's twice as strong.

[Pete]

They do last forever.

Are you sure you have sufficient clearance for a full size starter?

[Stu Twin]

Clearance should be ok as it's got cast manifolds & standard downpipe. Unless one of my home made cooler lines is in the way.

Just found this chart, will go and have a measure...

[Carl]

Ive had 2 mini starters break the nose off, still have them nothing wrong with them apart from the broken off noses. Both times when it happens it felt like the engine kicked back, checked the timing and was spot on so guess it was something to do with the starter bendix jumping as the nose broke or maybe that caused it to break? Maybe a cheap make? but remains a mystery.

[Stu Twin]

Yes Carl that's kinda what it felt like. Timing should be ok it's just been set up. Tis a bit lumpy though but maybe that's a 'feature'.
I had a quick measure using that chart as a guide, no idea if the measurements on the chart are right though? I'll see if i can find any other sources.

Anyways it looks like the ring gear and mounting pads are about 2.5 - 3mm closer to the bellhousing mounting face than the chart recommends.
Measurements of 1/2" from the bellhousing to the mounting pad (19/32 recommended) and 1 1/8 to the ring gear (1 1/4 recomm).
Flexplate has some shallow headed bolts so they've not proved a problem. No marks on the inside of the dust cover. Or horrid noises indicating anything rubbing.

So if the ring gear is too close to the starter I guess in theory that the starter gear may not be clear when retracted? That's what i thought so I started to look at getting a 2.5mm shim made. But i checked the dimension of how far the starter gear protrudes into the trans when it's retracted, and it measures 24mm on both mini and stock starter. 24mm makes it clear of the 1 1/8 (28.6mm).

I would have thought if the starter gear isn't clear of the ring gear when retracted there would have been all sorts of swarfage & teeth behind the dust cover.
I will email the guys who built the engine to ask if they have any thoughts, but wondered if any of you home builders have any guidelines you follow?

Hopefully it was just a mini starter that was past it's sell by date.

[Carl]

I might also point out Stu that my car is manual, yours is Auto, so i assume there maybe differences in the converter and the flywheel size so i cant help you with the measurments but the fixed position of the starter to ring gear should be the same for both as starters are interchangable between auto and manual. My thoughts are more swaying towards crap starters especially if the engines have had a bit of work done to them. This is the third starter in the car and so far has been okay, but i hold my breath everytime i start the car.

[Stu Twin]

.... but i hold my breath everytime i start the car.

That must take the fun out of driving it?
Well until it fires up.

[Blue]

Ok, for a start, replacing a mini starter with a stock style starter is akin to replacing electronic ignition with points. if you want slower cranking and an increased level of will it or won't it then don't let me stop you! Kicking back can break the starter nose so I've read, never had it happen personally. What you do need to check with a mini starter especially on a big block is starter to block clearance. The place to note is the edge of the block where the starter aperture is. It's hidden once the starter is in so you need to use a feeler gauge or even a bit of thin card to see it is not hard up against the block, even a fag papers clearance is enough. Otherwise as you tighten the bolts you put a strain on the nose as the block twists the starters location slightly.

[Stu Twin]

Thanks Blue, i have a new stock style starter 'in stock' so that's why i was going to fit it.
And i remember Paul Riley saying he went through a couple of mini starters due to breakages, so it got me a bit twitchy.

I will look at the clearances before fitting anything.

Do you think there's anything to worry about fore / aft position of the ring gear? it may only be about 2.5 to 3mm out from specs, and the starter pinion looks to be clear when retracted.

if the clearances on the old starter look ok then i wonder what caused the breakage?

[Dave999]

both standard and mini starter have to fit into the register cast into the bellhousing

the standard starter has a wider mouth if you catch my drift, you fit it in and jiggle it and the opening in the snout fits round the ring gear easily and the d shaped end of the snout fits into the support register in the bellhousing.

the mini starter takes a little more maneuvering and jiggling to get it round the ring gear as the end of the snout section is different and the mouth is a different shape.
the D shaped end is however the same and in the same relative position to the mounting face, all should be good

But if you do not then get it level so that the sides of the D shaped end of the snout are parallel to the hole it fits in it can snag and the starter doesn't totally bottom out against the bellhousing mounting face. on my car this is at the upper stud. my starter sits at 2 o'clock looking into the bell. you can't see what you are doing. yours being a V8 should be easier to see but your exhaust will get in the way yours will be at 4 oclock i would think

either way. incorrect seating of the starter can cause it to crack

you do up the bottom bolt no problem, all looks good
you do up the nut on the stud at the top but you can't see easily if the starter is slightly wonky especially if you fit the dust cover shim

when you do up the stud and nut you stress the aluminium snout and it either cracks there and then or it does it later down the line.

they work perfectly well when wonky mine was like that for a year before i realised something was wrong took it out and found a crack.

next time i cleaned out the register and made sure the starter snout fitted before i put the lot back in. No problems since.

when you think about it a 40 year old starter has been bashed in and out of the register a number of times
a mini starter is a brand new casting, that d shaped stub to fit into the register is going to be a tighter fit.

kick back, could cause it as well although the only time i knackered a starter with that, it stripped the teeth off the gears inside, the motor gear is shiny metal and the reduction gear looks like some fused metal powder type carry-on i.e not a machined chunk of brass or steel or whatever they make press fit pinion gears for motors from...motor unit survived reduction gear on the end of the shaft in the snout lost 3 teeth. i.e the cheap to replace bit is the bit that gets broken.

if you smash the nose of a mini starter i believe this is the part you need

51-8205
D.E. Housing
Aluminum
For: Nippondenso 1.4kW OSGR Starters
Used On: (1990-88) Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth
Unit Nos: Nippondenso 128000-496, 128000-527,
128000-528, 128000-567, 128000-632
Lester Nos: 17084
WAI Ref. Nos: 2-1383-ND
Dim:
Mtg. Ear-1 Hole Size: 14mm
Mtg. Ear-1 to Bushing Center: 76mm
Mtg. Ear-2 Hole Size: 11mm
Mtg. Ear-2 to Bushing Center: 54mm
Locating Dia: 71mm


like this https://www.amscovf.com/HOUSING-DE--ND- ... 05038.html

i think


Dave

[Blue]

Heres where someone has ground a bit off the starter for block clearance to give you an idea of where to look.

[Dave999]

but don''t slice the end off the casting as well, like they have. with a cast snout ideally the starter is supported by the register in the bellhousing

the ones with no end usually have a seriously robust mounting plate instead of a cast housing and the end of the pinion shaft fits into the register in the bell (with a special bush in it, like a spigot bush) while it is engaged with the ring gear doing its job.

this version of starter doesn't do that the pinion has a skirt on it that stops reward travel way before end of pinion reaches anywhere near end of housing. it makes do with a big fat pinion support press fit into the snout below the pinion hence the ally casting takes any force that tries to splay the pinion away from the ring gear. it needs support at the mounting and at the register in the bellhousing

probably explains why that starter needs a new pinion


Dave

[Stu Twin]

Thanks Dave & Blue, i'll see if the clearances are there with old & new starters.
Hopefully i'll find evidence that the old mini starter wasn't seated properly. It probably would've marked the nice shiny orange paint (i'm sure i would have noticed when i was under there last night). Dunno why it would be though, i reckon it was on the old engine for yonks without issue. Why would a new block cause an issue? I could understand if it was a new mini starter.

I would have thought the old stock type is more likely to be clear.
Ideally i'd like to get the car back up n running for sunday, so if the stock one looks ok i'll use it.

I expect getting the starter to sit square is more relevant that the ring gear position relative to the bellhousing face?

[Pete]

The brand new starter on the Challenger would not fit flat on the gearbox face.

I had to do a lot of work on it and then open up one of the fixing holes to make it right.

The issue was that it NEARLY fitted so if you were in a rush or under the car in the shadows you would not have noticed it....

[Carl]

if you smash the nose of a mini starter i believe this is the part you need

51-8205
D.E. Housing
Aluminum
For: Nippondenso 1.4kW OSGR Starters
Used On: (1990-88) Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth
Unit Nos: Nippondenso 128000-496, 128000-527,
128000-528, 128000-567, 128000-632
Lester Nos: 17084
WAI Ref. Nos: 2-1383-ND
Dim:
Mtg. Ear-1 Hole Size: 14mm
Mtg. Ear-1 to Bushing Center: 76mm
Mtg. Ear-2 Hole Size: 11mm
Mtg. Ear-2 to Bushing Center: 54mm
Locating Dia: 71mm


like this https://www.amscovf.com/HOUSING-DE--ND- ... 05038.html

i think


Dave

Thats a handy link Dave, nice one I looked everywhere for replacement nose, worth getting a couple and repair my 2 newish good starters.