Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
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Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
As Stu eluded to, a few posts back, we had to renew the valley pan gasket a while ago... here's the reason...
We were setting off early doors on New Years Day, to go to 'Vintage Stony' at Stony Stratford near Milton Keynes but almost as soon as we'd started the car, a noticeable ticking noise was heard, similar to what we had back in 2019 (see page 24 of this thread).
So once we'd determined the noise wasn't going away, and was probably a reoccurrence of what we’d had before, we parked the car and there it sat until a few weeks ago
So, no biggie, just remove the valve covers to check which pushrod had come adrift, make sure there's no damage... until we actually couldn’t remove the driver-side cover as the gasket sealant was doing too good a job
We managed to get the pass-side off with a bit less of a struggle and found that No2 inlet pushrod was jammed up under the rocker, beside where it should have been, pretty much the same as last time, except then it was No3 exhaust.
In removing the pushrod we managed to drop it down the hole so now we needed to remove the inlet too! At least with that off we could get another angle of attack on the other valve cover
Something we did notice with the valve covers off, the edge of the gasket, adjacent to the pushrods, had semi-circular cut-outs in line with the pushrods. Martin assures us these weren’t there when he fitted them, so we’re wondering if the pushrods have come into contact with the edge of the gasket and if so, would that would be enough to knock the pushrod out of whack? Either way, No 2 pushrods aren’t as close to the gasket edge as the gasket’s not as wide in this area, so the jury's still out on that one
The cork gaskets we’ve now fitted looked a lot narrower in that area; I'm hoping that's not just because they hadn't been compressed when photographed
With the help of our friendly local MMA expert, Ian Mitchel (again)l, we checked and adjusted the preload on all lifters and set them to about 40 thou – ¾ turn of the adjuster.
So what should have taken a couple of hours to sort, ended up taking a few weeks cos in trying to get the driver-side valve cover off, we inadvertently managed to dent it – it was stuck that hard! And once off, the mounting flange wasn’t as flat as it previously was so once again we called upon the help of another expert to fix the damage – JC
Once JC had worked his magic, back on with a new valley pan gasket, freshly painted to match the fixed and repainted valve covers. We chose a sealant that’s non-setting (Loctite 5922 if anyone’s interested ), praying it would seal as well as the Wurth one Martin used, but knowing we’ll most likely have to remove them again in the not too distant future
Once it was all back together, it started after a couple of attempts, then after a few minutes running, any louder-than-hoped-for top-end noise settled down and idled nicely with no noticeable oil, water or fuel leaks.
Not taken it out yet but weather permitting, there’s a couple of local shows/meets on next weekend that we’ll hopefully get to this time
We were setting off early doors on New Years Day, to go to 'Vintage Stony' at Stony Stratford near Milton Keynes but almost as soon as we'd started the car, a noticeable ticking noise was heard, similar to what we had back in 2019 (see page 24 of this thread).
So once we'd determined the noise wasn't going away, and was probably a reoccurrence of what we’d had before, we parked the car and there it sat until a few weeks ago
So, no biggie, just remove the valve covers to check which pushrod had come adrift, make sure there's no damage... until we actually couldn’t remove the driver-side cover as the gasket sealant was doing too good a job
We managed to get the pass-side off with a bit less of a struggle and found that No2 inlet pushrod was jammed up under the rocker, beside where it should have been, pretty much the same as last time, except then it was No3 exhaust.
In removing the pushrod we managed to drop it down the hole so now we needed to remove the inlet too! At least with that off we could get another angle of attack on the other valve cover
Something we did notice with the valve covers off, the edge of the gasket, adjacent to the pushrods, had semi-circular cut-outs in line with the pushrods. Martin assures us these weren’t there when he fitted them, so we’re wondering if the pushrods have come into contact with the edge of the gasket and if so, would that would be enough to knock the pushrod out of whack? Either way, No 2 pushrods aren’t as close to the gasket edge as the gasket’s not as wide in this area, so the jury's still out on that one
The cork gaskets we’ve now fitted looked a lot narrower in that area; I'm hoping that's not just because they hadn't been compressed when photographed
With the help of our friendly local MMA expert, Ian Mitchel (again)l, we checked and adjusted the preload on all lifters and set them to about 40 thou – ¾ turn of the adjuster.
So what should have taken a couple of hours to sort, ended up taking a few weeks cos in trying to get the driver-side valve cover off, we inadvertently managed to dent it – it was stuck that hard! And once off, the mounting flange wasn’t as flat as it previously was so once again we called upon the help of another expert to fix the damage – JC
Once JC had worked his magic, back on with a new valley pan gasket, freshly painted to match the fixed and repainted valve covers. We chose a sealant that’s non-setting (Loctite 5922 if anyone’s interested ), praying it would seal as well as the Wurth one Martin used, but knowing we’ll most likely have to remove them again in the not too distant future
Once it was all back together, it started after a couple of attempts, then after a few minutes running, any louder-than-hoped-for top-end noise settled down and idled nicely with no noticeable oil, water or fuel leaks.
Not taken it out yet but weather permitting, there’s a couple of local shows/meets on next weekend that we’ll hopefully get to this time
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
40 thou preload isn’t enough with modern hydraulic lifters, also Hughes don’t recommend heavier than 30 weight oil. Wade through this, http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/pro ... _Dec23.pdf
I suggest a lack of preload and possibly too thick an oil is the reason for the pushrods jumping out.
I suggest a lack of preload and possibly too thick an oil is the reason for the pushrods jumping out.
“This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin’ around”
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
Typical We checked with Koffel when it happened last time and they said :Blue wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 24 9:32 am 40 thou preload isn’t enough with modern hydraulic lifters, also Hughes don’t recommend heavier than 30 weight oil. Wade through this, http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/pro ... _Dec23.pdf
I suggest a lack of preload and possibly too thick an oil is the reason for the pushrods jumping out.
"The way i set the rockers is when ex rocker just starts to open you set the int.I get just a little drag on .0015 feeler guage then turn down adjuster 5/8 turn and tighten lock nut.Then to set ex you wait till int valve has just finished closed. This method will give you about .040-.050 preload which is what cam people want on the lifters"
Other places we checked (except Hughes, obvs) say anywhere between 30-70 thou.
Why doesn't anyone ever agree about anything?
They also recommended 20-50 which is what we use anyway
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
i agree with the lack of preload, i thought the same when reading this but blue beat me to it. i wouldn't be so worried about the 20/50 though, maybe 10/40 would be a good compromise?
neil.
neil.
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
Most people agree that lifters now need more preload than they used to. One of the reasons for that that I’ve heard is “new” lifters start off as used cores which are refurbished. I’ve never found Hughes information to be incorrect so far, so I tend to follow it. Personally I would snug all the rockers down another 1/4 turn and see how that goes. Provided the pushrod is the correct length and it’s not physically touching anything solid then that only leaves preload and the lifters ability to maintain that preload as far as I can think.
“This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin’ around”
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
I just read some more threads on For B Bodies Only and with .030-.070 but typically .040-.045 seems to be what people recommend, with the caveat of 'follow the manufacturer's recommendations'... which I cant find (Mopar Performance), except what I was told by Koffel
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
i'd do as blue says and give them another 1/4 turn. then check how much more compression the lifter has. as long as it's roughly in the middle of it's travel you're not going to hurt it.
neil.
neil.
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
Thanks Neil, Yes we prob will do that but I think we'd already worked out (or read somewhere ) that 40 thou was half the lifter's travel
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
Following on...
This might be a silly question, but can the extra 1/4 turn be added with the valve train as is, or does it have to be done in sequence with each valve closed (off the cam)?
This might be a silly question, but can the extra 1/4 turn be added with the valve train as is, or does it have to be done in sequence with each valve closed (off the cam)?
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
Yes probably. i think you can do that. put a 1/2 turn on, bleed down the lifter for a few min, watch the rocker and wind it back a 1/4 if you hit rock bottom it will be obvious
gonna depend on the thread pitch of the adjuster and the angles involved but i would say yes
provided you set them up right in the first place
should be enough travel to accommodate that.
well there was on my 6 cylinder and we use the same 0.904 mopar centric lifter.
here is a question
does too much ZDDP in the oil, plate the internal lifter piston so that it is too slow to react and the lifter doesn't pump up?
we live in an age that states add ZDDP additive for break in...... too much of a good thing? might be a bad thing.
too much zddp has no impact on anyone with a solid flat tappet cam...!
the boys with roller cams don't care, they don't need it like we do.
ZDDP plates metal surfaces that are hot and exposed to fiction. good on cam lobe, lifter face, and oil pump and dizzy gears not so good on a precision piston in a bore where the dimensions of both are critical, a piston controlled by oil pressure, and a tiny spring, in the milliseconds the lifter is on the base circle, slow the piston down with a bit more friction between it and it's bore and the lifter doesn't pump up.
just a thought, and of course could be BS
Dave
gonna depend on the thread pitch of the adjuster and the angles involved but i would say yes
provided you set them up right in the first place
should be enough travel to accommodate that.
well there was on my 6 cylinder and we use the same 0.904 mopar centric lifter.
here is a question
does too much ZDDP in the oil, plate the internal lifter piston so that it is too slow to react and the lifter doesn't pump up?
we live in an age that states add ZDDP additive for break in...... too much of a good thing? might be a bad thing.
too much zddp has no impact on anyone with a solid flat tappet cam...!
the boys with roller cams don't care, they don't need it like we do.
ZDDP plates metal surfaces that are hot and exposed to fiction. good on cam lobe, lifter face, and oil pump and dizzy gears not so good on a precision piston in a bore where the dimensions of both are critical, a piston controlled by oil pressure, and a tiny spring, in the milliseconds the lifter is on the base circle, slow the piston down with a bit more friction between it and it's bore and the lifter doesn't pump up.
just a thought, and of course could be BS
Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
Thanks for all the input. We sifted thru all the advice on here & elsewhere and figured an extra 1/2 turn on the adjusters would give approx 60 thou preload. If total plunger travel is 120 thou then bang in the middle. (Unless we believe the MP lifters have 210 thou travel like someone on FBBO said).
Managed to wind down 13 of the 16 without rotating the engine & just had to get the ratchet on the crank a couple of times to do all of them.
All buttoned up we took the car for a test drive to the Goat in Hertford on Sunday.
Hopefully Rob will post some pics of the great mix of cars there.
Managed to wind down 13 of the 16 without rotating the engine & just had to get the ratchet on the crank a couple of times to do all of them.
All buttoned up we took the car for a test drive to the Goat in Hertford on Sunday.
Hopefully Rob will post some pics of the great mix of cars there.
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
You wouldn’t be getting great advice like this on Facebook
Are we there yet dad ..... 10 to the gallon but worth it.
MMA Public Relations Officer.
MMA South London and Surrey Area Rep.
MMA Public Relations Officer.
MMA South London and Surrey Area Rep.
Re: Rob & Stu's 69 Sport Satellite
Ask five people the same question and get five different answers