Weird wheel toe-in after tie-rod end change

Garp · Post by **Garp** » Sun May 07, 17 5:51 pm

Hi all,
Just need to see if this is considered "normal".
After flunking MOT on seizing front calipers and knackered outer tie-rod ends, I've had the Chally up on jack stands for a couple of weeks while doing the work.
Replaced calipers, both inner and outer TRE's (counted turns on removing to keep approx the same), bled brakes, refitted wheels and finally put her back
down.
Decided to take her out on a small brake-test run only to find her all over the road, braking was fine but handled like a pig.
Got out and had a look at the front and the bonnet was pitched up and the front tyres severely toed-in and riding high on the outer edge.
Panicked, and thinking summit had come adrift, I doubled-checked the rods, castle nuts and split-pins to find all was good. Drove back to the storage to jack her up and check things over ....... only to find it seems to have cured itself.
Is this just two weeks of "hanging" wheels and suspension getting out of their usual position? I bloody hope so.
Hopefully, I'm not the only person to have experienced this. Checked and double-checked my work.
Any ideas ???
Garp

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sun May 07, 17 5:53 pm

Hard to tell in a picture but the camber looks excessive - is it at correct ride height?

Garp · Post by **Garp** » Sun May 07, 17 6:06 pm

Pete wrote:Hard to tell in a picture but the camber looks excessive - is it at correct ride height?

Yes, ride height was high, camber excessive but it all seems to have settled - I just want to know if two weeks on jack stands can allow your front end to get into an odd position?

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sun May 07, 17 6:18 pm

Yes, I think they take a bit of time to settle, as long as all is well now..

Captain Chaos · Post by **Captain Chaos** » Sun May 07, 17 8:41 pm

The photo looks like it's too tall on the front with loads of positive camber possibly due to the suspension being out of position for a while,if that's better now I'd get the alinement checked as it won't cost very much and you may be surprised how much better a tracked up car feels.

Garp · Post by **Garp** » Mon May 08, 17 7:57 am

Bugger !
It's back !
Seems going forwards causes the wheels to camber in and compete with each other. The minute I reverse it undoes itself - sadly, I wanted to go forward today

My guess is that it is just really off tracking at this point - I'll need to get that sorted but not going to chance driving to the local garage like this because if I don't come off the road, one of the front tyres will just peel right off the rim and then I'll come off the road !!!
Can I just adjust the tie-rod to avoid this happening and get to a garage or is it a bigger job?
Frustrated !!!!

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Mon May 08, 17 8:08 am

Did you change the Upper Control Arm position at all using the cams?

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Mon May 08, 17 8:22 am

Your tracking is way out hence when reversing the suspension raises up like that. There is a method to get you in the ballpark without any special equipment. Measure the tyre tread width and mark the centre with chalk, do both sides as high up as you can and still be able to measure between centres. Roll the car forward until you marks appear at the rear, again as high as you can go and still measure across. The actual measurement isn't important, what your trying to achieve is the same distance back and front. So it's measure, roll, measure, adjust,roll, measure till you get the measurement equal. It still won't be right but it will be near enough to drive safely to get it set correctly. Your welcome, just leave some money in the cup....

Garp · Post by **Garp** » Mon May 08, 17 8:59 am

Pete wrote:Did you change the Upper Control Arm position at all using the cams?

No, didn't touch them. Only thing I changed were the inner and outer tie rod ends. Although I counted the turns taking out, it's pretty obvious that they need to be adjusted out a few turns.
That will cure the camber, but how has this effected the toe-in so severely ?
It's honestly like driving on ice ! Just no real connection between steering wheel and the road.
The "angle" of the tie rod end is governed (I guess) by the fitment they engage with on each end, so once again, I can only assume I just need to slacken off the tension on the toe rods.
Just need it driveable enough to take it to a pro.

Garp · Post by **Garp** » Mon May 08, 17 9:07 am

Blue wrote:Your tracking is way out hence when reversing the suspension raises up like that. There is a method to get you in the ballpark without any special equipment. Measure the tyre tread width and mark the centre with chalk, do both sides as high up as you can and still be able to measure between centres. Roll the car forward until you marks appear at the rear, again as high as you can go and still measure across. The actual measurement isn't important, what your trying to achieve is the same distance back and front. So it's measure, roll, measure, adjust,roll, measure till you get the measurement equal. It still won't be right but it will be near enough to drive safely to get it set correctly. Your welcome, just leave some money in the cup....

Blue,
I had to read this at least four times but not quite sure I understand the principle in action. Let me read it once again.

Captain Chaos · Post by **Captain Chaos** » Mon May 08, 17 9:14 am

Blue wrote:Your tracking is way out hence when reversing the suspension raises up like that. There is a method to get you in the ballpark without any special equipment. Measure the tyre tread width and mark the centre with chalk, do both sides as high up as you can and still be able to measure between centres. Roll the car forward until you marks appear at the rear, again as high as you can go and still measure across. The actual measurement isn't important, what your trying to achieve is the same distance back and front. So it's measure, roll, measure, adjust,roll, measure till you get the measurement equal. It still won't be right but it will be near enough to drive safely to get it set correctly. Your welcome, just leave some money in the cup....

Wot he said.

Garp · Post by **Garp** » Mon May 08, 17 9:33 am

Ok, understand what Blue means - am I ONLY adjusting the tie rods at this point ?

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Mon May 08, 17 9:56 am

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Mon May 08, 17 9:56 am

Yes you are. Toe changes with suspension height so forces are trying to get the wheels straight and in this case the only way is up, that's why it's doing that. Incorrect toe will cause the car to skitter around all over the place and make it hyper sensitive to any bump or turn of the steering. Relax, get the wheels pointing straight ahead and parralel again and everything will be back to where it was. For future referance, counting the amount of turns when changing track rod ends is highly inaccurate as you have just found out. Measure between the grease nipples of the inner and outer rod ends before you strip it down, and reassemble to that length and it should not be very far out.

Garp · Post by **Garp** » Mon May 08, 17 10:17 am

Blue wrote: Measure between the grease nipples of the inner and outer rod ends before you strip it down, and reassemble to that length and it should not be very far out.

Cheers guys off to do it now.
Blue, if I had a quid for every person who gave the advice of "counting the turns"...... anyways, just happy to know it can be cured as it is very scary to drive like this even for a few hundred yards !